- Hey Evan, it is so wonderful to chat with you again.
Today is Food Day,
and we're having some really challenging
and interesting discussions here at COP.
You and I know everybody knows we're in the middle of
probably one of the worst food crises we've seen.
And in general our food system,
while producing more than enough food,
is still leaving a billion people hungry
or without access to sufficient food.
So, we do have a problem.
But there's some interesting debates
that are starting to emerge.
We have a crisis.
Do we, can we, actually do a transformation at the same time,
or do we focus on the crisis?
Should every country start to produce its own food
given all the disruptions we've seen in the supply chain?
I wanna start off this conversation
by asking you where is your head on this
now that you've seen this debate here as well?
- This is one of the big conversations of the generation.
I mean, when the history books
of the 21st century are written
there will be a significant chapter
on the food system transformation.
Right now we're focused on three C's, three bad C's.
Conflict, climate change, and Covid.
And all of those have really upended
the fundamental assumptions of our industrial food system.
So, what do we do about it?
Well, I think we need to invest in technology first of all,
in order to shrink agriculture's environmental footprint.
And that is an absolute necessary imperative.
At the same time,
the reason there's about a billion people on the planet
unable to access a safe, nutritious diet,
it hasn't to do with production.
It has to do with poverty.
It has to do with marginalization.
It has to do with the legacy of colonialism and racism.
It's these structural, social and economic issues
which are disenfranchising almost a billion people probably.
It's hard to actually count exactly,
but a significant percentage of the world's population.
And really addressing that question of access
is a matter of social policy and economic policy
much more than it is about agriculture.
For me, the agricultural question is saving the planet,
not undermining the ecosystems we all depend on for life.
And the question of access is a social issue.
- Interesting, so let's talk about the technology part,
right, the agriculture part of it.
You've written a book with a very exciting title.
- Woo-hoo! - It's called "Dinner on Mars."
Definitely makes one wanna pick it up and read it
and it's a great book.
Tell us a little bit about
the technologies that you see coming in,
and what role technology you think will play.
- So, the book comes out of Covid.
And my good friend Lenore Newman and I
started texting each other in March of 2020,
about, well we can't travel,
where can we go in our imaginations to study a food system?
So we thought, well let's design the food system
for a martian community,
because we could do that while locked in our bedrooms
in March of 2020.
And actually as we were researching those technologies
we realized these are the technologies
we need here on earth.
And they're hyper, hyper efficient.
They use every input.
Every photon of solar energy is precious.
Every gram of organic matter.
Every bit of labor is precious,
'cause you can't assume that you've got this
lush biosphere and a cheap labor force to exploit
in order to produce food.
So the technologies to produce a food on Mars
are hyper efficient.
They're also closed-loop technologies.
You don't just produce something in one part
and just throw it away in another part.
On Mars, you know there can be no such thing as waste.
So it's it's a circular economy
that brings waste products from one part of the system
as inputs into the other part of the system.
So efficiency, closed-loop,
and then very little in the way of animal-based proteins.
So we have to sort of fix the animal-based protein problem.
And I'm not a vegetarian, I want to eat steak and ice cream
for the rest of my life.
And I realized that we all as a global society
have to eat less steak and ice cream,
and we need to therefore find
much lower environmental footprint alternatives.
Not because we all have to become vegan,
but because we all collectively have to find
lower cost alternatives in terms of the environment.
- It's a brilliant and fascinating insight
of how if you start from scratch
you can actually design something, right?
Now we gotta retrofit it in.
Last quick question.
You and I are all having conversations
with a lot of policy makers around here
and many of the policy makers are talking to each other.
We know the need for an enabling policy environment.
Very quickly, what are your big thoughts
on what's needed to accelerate
the transformation in agriculture?
- Yeah, so we can't be technologically utopian.
I mean, technologies are never a panacea,
and they need that enabling policy environment.
So we need an environment that rewards farmers
for protecting the environment.
I mean financially rewards them.
So that's things like payment for ecosystem services,
is sometimes what it's called.
Carbon price mechanisms is another mechanism.
We need policies that protect labor and animal welfare
much more strongly than we currently have, I would argue.
And we need policies that really, really put a priority on
investing in those technologies
that will reduce the environmental footprint of agriculture.
And those are the sort of technology bundles
that I think are necessary.
- Fantastic. It is always such a pleasure to chat with you.
Thank you so much for your time.
- My pleasure. Thank you.
(bright music)