WEBVTT

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- Hey Evan, it is so wonderful
to chat with you again.

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Today is Food Day,

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and we're having some really challenging

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and interesting discussions here at COP.

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You and I know everybody
knows we're in the middle of

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probably one of the worst
food crises we've seen.

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And in general our food system,

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while producing more than enough food,

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is still leaving a billion people hungry

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or without access to sufficient food.

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So, we do have a problem.

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But there's some interesting debates

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that are starting to emerge.

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We have a crisis.

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Do we, can we, actually do a
transformation at the same time,

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or do we focus on the crisis?

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Should every country start
to produce its own food

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given all the disruptions
we've seen in the supply chain?

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I wanna start off this conversation

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by asking you where is your head on this

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now that you've seen
this debate here as well?

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- This is one of the big
conversations of the generation.

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I mean, when the history books

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of the 21st century are written

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there will be a significant chapter

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on the food system transformation.

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Right now we're focused on
three C's, three bad C's.

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Conflict, climate change, and Covid.

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And all of those have really upended

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the fundamental assumptions
of our industrial food system.

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So, what do we do about it?

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Well, I think we need to invest
in technology first of all,

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in order to shrink agriculture's
environmental footprint.

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And that is an absolute
necessary imperative.

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At the same time,

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the reason there's about a
billion people on the planet

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unable to access a safe, nutritious diet,

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it hasn't to do with production.

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It has to do with poverty.

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It has to do with marginalization.

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It has to do with the legacy
of colonialism and racism.

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It's these structural,
social and economic issues

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which are disenfranchising
almost a billion people probably.

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It's hard to actually count exactly,

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but a significant percentage
of the world's population.

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And really addressing
that question of access

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is a matter of social
policy and economic policy

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much more than it is about agriculture.

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For me, the agricultural
question is saving the planet,

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not undermining the ecosystems
we all depend on for life.

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And the question of
access is a social issue.

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- Interesting, so let's talk
about the technology part,

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right, the agriculture part of it.

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You've written a book with
a very exciting title.

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- Woo-hoo!
- It's called "Dinner on Mars."

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Definitely makes one wanna
pick it up and read it

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and it's a great book.

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Tell us a little bit about

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the technologies that you see coming in,

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and what role technology
you think will play.

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- So, the book comes out of Covid.

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And my good friend Lenore Newman and I

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started texting each
other in March of 2020,

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about, well we can't travel,

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where can we go in our imaginations
to study a food system?

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So we thought, well let's
design the food system

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for a martian community,

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because we could do that
while locked in our bedrooms

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in March of 2020.

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And actually as we were
researching those technologies

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we realized these are the technologies

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we need here on earth.

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And they're hyper, hyper efficient.

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They use every input.

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Every photon of solar energy is precious.

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Every gram of organic matter.

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Every bit of labor is precious,

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'cause you can't assume
that you've got this

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lush biosphere and a cheap
labor force to exploit

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in order to produce food.

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So the technologies to
produce a food on Mars

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are hyper efficient.

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They're also closed-loop technologies.

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You don't just produce
something in one part

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and just throw it away in another part.

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On Mars, you know there can
be no such thing as waste.

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So it's it's a circular economy

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that brings waste products
from one part of the system

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as inputs into the other
part of the system.

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So efficiency, closed-loop,

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and then very little in the
way of animal-based proteins.

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So we have to sort of fix the
animal-based protein problem.

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And I'm not a vegetarian, I
want to eat steak and ice cream

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for the rest of my life.

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And I realized that we
all as a global society

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have to eat less steak and ice cream,

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and we need to therefore find

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much lower environmental
footprint alternatives.

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Not because we all have to become vegan,

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but because we all
collectively have to find

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lower cost alternatives in
terms of the environment.

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- It's a brilliant and fascinating insight

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of how if you start from scratch

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you can actually design something, right?

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Now we gotta retrofit it in.

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Last quick question.

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You and I are all having conversations

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with a lot of policy makers around here

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and many of the policy makers
are talking to each other.

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We know the need for an
enabling policy environment.

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Very quickly, what are your big thoughts

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on what's needed to accelerate

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the transformation in agriculture?

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- Yeah, so we can't be
technologically utopian.

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I mean, technologies are never a panacea,

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and they need that enabling
policy environment.

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So we need an environment
that rewards farmers

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for protecting the environment.

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I mean financially rewards them.

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So that's things like payment
for ecosystem services,

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is sometimes what it's called.

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Carbon price mechanisms
is another mechanism.

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We need policies that protect
labor and animal welfare

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much more strongly than we
currently have, I would argue.

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And we need policies that
really, really put a priority on

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investing in those technologies

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that will reduce the environmental
footprint of agriculture.

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And those are the sort
of technology bundles

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that I think are necessary.

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- Fantastic. It is always such
a pleasure to chat with you.

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Thank you so much for your time.

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- My pleasure. Thank you.

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(bright music)